tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post3126412890355179365..comments2023-09-26T03:53:17.142-04:00Comments on Pentimento: Listening to Classical Music: A Moral Imperative?Pentimentohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17161146891505294679noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-65910538091401853152013-09-09T17:11:38.007-04:002013-09-09T17:11:38.007-04:00"Those things which . . . convey beauty or go..."Those things which . . . convey beauty or goodness TO US" (my emphasis) implies a subjective perception of beauty, though. I'm not sure if Kwasniewski would entertain such moral-aesthetic relativism. Pentimentohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17161146891505294679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-25054863528511898052013-09-09T16:43:16.618-04:002013-09-09T16:43:16.618-04:00Yes, that's why I think the line drawn in the ...Yes, that's why I think the line drawn in the essay is too simplistic. In a sense, any line will be too simplistic: the ways in which beauty and excellence can show themselves are too multifarious to be captured in a simple formulation.<br /><br />I am thinking about Thomas Aquinas' image of creation manifesting the glory of God through the sheer diversity of its creatures: angels and eagles, yes, but also squirrels and slugs. No one creature on its own can capture the fullness of that glory; we see it better when it is reflected through a multitude of mirrors, each one less than perfect in itself.<br /><br />In the same way, it may be that a Beethoven string quartet is objectively a great and glorious work, but still it cannot exhaust the potential of beauty and goodness. It may be that there is a certain aspect of that goodness that can be conveyed best through a pop song, with its sense of immediacy and its personal stamp. <br /><br />This still doesn't change the fact, though, that we ought to treasure the good, look for it, and honour it, wherever it may be found, and that we ought to avoid those things which do not convey beauty or goodness to us. That, I think, is the sensible core of the article.cnbhttp://cburrell.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-58301488499649396062013-09-09T10:08:43.932-04:002013-09-09T10:08:43.932-04:00My problem with this argument, though, is that the...My problem with this argument, though, is that the criteria for defining beauty and excellence are not clearly or convincingly defined. Are they subjective, in the ear of the beholder? Or are there absolutes? If so, from what do those absolutes derive?<br /><br />As I said in a comment above, I firmly believe that the music of Beethoven (et al., but especially Beethoven) is superior to just about any form of artistic expression across cultures and centuries. But I was in a store the other day when Blondie's song "Dreaming" came on, and it occurred to me what a great song it is and how well-played. It probably had little or no deleterious effect on my soul to appreciate it. In fact, as I think you know, I have a doctorate in music, had a small but international career as a concert and opera singer, and am now writing a scholarly book on a musicological subject, but I found myself hoping that anything I ever do might be as good as that Blondie song. Or as the Temptations' "My Girl." or Parliament's "Flash Light," or anything in Joni Mitchell's oeuvre, etc., etc. What is good? What is beautiful? Pentimentohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17161146891505294679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-27677419196439466862013-09-08T21:12:20.731-04:002013-09-08T21:12:20.731-04:00I agree with others that the argument is far too s...I agree with others that the argument is far too simplistic in the particular line it draws between worthy and unworthy music, but the larger point seems to me quite sound: the music we enjoy is both a reflection of and an influence on the order and disorder in our souls. It is true that we ought to try to become people who love beauty and excellence, and we ought not to be satisfied with mediocrity. Do we -- do <em>I</em> -- think about that enough?cnbhttp://cburrell.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-90602696554952790952013-09-06T12:46:35.175-04:002013-09-06T12:46:35.175-04:00BD, you remind me of Yeats's poem "Crazy ...BD, you remind me of Yeats's poem "Crazy Jane Talks With the Bishop":<br /><br />"'. . . love has pitched his mansion in<br />The place of excrement;<br />For nothing can be sole or whole<br />That has not been rent.' "Pentimentohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17161146891505294679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-52392573091800880302013-09-06T09:54:24.250-04:002013-09-06T09:54:24.250-04:00I think the thing that most troubles me about this...I think the thing that most troubles me about this piece, is the idea that the domestic church is set at a particular imaginary bar, and everything below it must be shut out, whereas, I think a true saintliness encompasses both the beautiful and the wretched, its arms spread wide to bear as much of the world as possible towards eternity. Doesn't mean you have to listen to music that offends you or God, but it does ask of everything, I believe, where is God in this? Can it be made Holy?BettyDuffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17130418609022759086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-72057498674576134752013-09-06T09:37:48.316-04:002013-09-06T09:37:48.316-04:00And the idea of turning the home into an "enc...And the idea of turning the home into an "enclosure" raises some alerts for me as well. Is one allowed to poop or sweat in such an enclosure?<br /><br />He warns against dualism, while exhibiting a dualistic mentality about earthier, lower, "profane" art forms. <br /><br />The Church at its best can absorb even the pagan arts.<br />BettyDuffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17130418609022759086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-65702379548101218802013-09-06T06:52:36.915-04:002013-09-06T06:52:36.915-04:00I would like to know what kinds of classical music...I would like to know what kinds of classical music he's listening to that doesn't cause any aches. Or maybe I just listen to too much bluegrass so I'm just completely corrupted?Sophie Miriamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14984573258370585557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-60633734773835494522013-09-06T06:39:17.296-04:002013-09-06T06:39:17.296-04:00I also wonder what he means by "listening,&qu...I also wonder what he means by "listening," exactly. Is he talking about background music while you're doing something else, or real close attentive listening -- attempting to enter into the ethos of the music, its style, its form, its particularities? Most people, not least in "domestic churches," lack the time for that kind of listening. But I have to argue that playing Bach while you tidy up may not be as morally edifying as he makes it seem. I wonder if the kind of listening he proposes is really for childless people who can set aside listening time. <br /><br />As someone the majority of whose life has been occupied with the music he prescribes, too, I have to say that this kind of attentive listening is work, and can be exhausting.<br /><br />There's a kind of essentialist-qualitative categorizing of "great" composers, too. I wonder if he'd omit Schubert for his syphilis, Schumann for his madness , Wagner for being a dick as well as batshit insane? Pentimentohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17161146891505294679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-63576812366137531172013-09-06T04:21:53.245-04:002013-09-06T04:21:53.245-04:00"Extraordinary how potent cheap music is"..."Extraordinary how potent cheap music is".<br /> <br />Also, great music is not for every day, I think. As Beatrice jokes, when refusing Don Pedro: <br /> "No, my lord, unless I might have another for working<br /> days: your Grace is too costly to wear every day." <br /><br />Some music is to costly to "wear every day." Otepotihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12315317923902957130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-76214158466118464202013-09-06T00:13:51.918-04:002013-09-06T00:13:51.918-04:00Lots of broad generalizations there and faulty ass...Lots of broad generalizations there and faulty assumptions. Isn't philosophy the handmaiden of theology (and a pre-requisite) and logic the foundation of philosophy. Such sloppy thinking in a supposed theologian pains me. Melanie Bettinellihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12557248434888642114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-1862125276799498312013-09-05T15:28:58.752-04:002013-09-05T15:28:58.752-04:00Well said, Mrs. D. And, incidentally, some of the ...Well said, Mrs. D. And, incidentally, some of the greatest music of the classical and romantic eras is about sin. The operas of Mozart come to mind.Pentimentohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17161146891505294679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-60817849125713561832013-09-05T15:25:15.969-04:002013-09-05T15:25:15.969-04:00This seems akin to saying there's only one way...This seems akin to saying there's only one way that music can be good. Sometimes you want the intricacy of Mozart, sometimes you want to sing the blues. The giveaway line is "today's popular music, produced mostly by hedonists who are generally singing about sins" -- as if all modern music is written by the same kind of person (or in the same kind of style, or about the same subjects), or that the composers of the classical and romantic era always led exemplary lives. <br /><br />And not all music that stirs up ache and longing stirs it up for something bad. MrsDarwinhttp://darwincatholic.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.com