tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post5800328130956112358..comments2023-09-26T03:53:17.142-04:00Comments on Pentimento: Is Christian Time Travel Possible?Pentimentohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17161146891505294679noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-40823406128161592982012-07-11T22:17:58.940-04:002012-07-11T22:17:58.940-04:00From a Christian perspective, it would be right to...From a Christian perspective, it would be right to follow God's will, but what if God could work through time travel?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-63109921152363408932010-04-29T23:18:37.186-04:002010-04-29T23:18:37.186-04:00Really interesting post, E. I didn't know I&#...Really interesting post, E. I didn't know I'd come so late into the Zachary Gray Argument. From your description it really sounds as though L'Engle uses him as a straw man to prove all her usual points. And perhaps the last point is the most mysterious: we never know on whom God's grace will fall. Often it appears that the least worthy get the most consolation. So I'm continuing to see him as an emblem of God's prodigious mercy.Pentimentohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17161146891505294679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-42645240886189131172010-04-29T13:24:48.879-04:002010-04-29T13:24:48.879-04:00+JMJ+
Pentimento, our discussion of Zachary inspi...+JMJ+<br /><br />Pentimento, our discussion of Zachary inspired me to write this post:<br /><br />http://shreddedcheddar.blogspot.com/2010/04/jmj-character-connection-4-read-about.html<br /><br />So thanks! =)Enbrethilielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03414765854670926854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-3204885442781505722010-04-25T05:41:32.416-04:002010-04-25T05:41:32.416-04:00+JMJ+
I vaguely remember Polly asking her mother ...+JMJ+<br /><br />I vaguely remember Polly asking her mother where "Uncle Charles" has been most of her life, and Meg saying, "He's fighting on the side of the angels," or something like that.<br /><br />So I assumed that Charles Wallace disappeared to have more cosmic adventures--which makes sense, anyway--and that only Meg would really know the whole story.<br /><br />And now it seems to me that there was nothing to stop Meg from kything with him all throughout her marriage! Maybe that <i>is</i> what happened! And who needs a flashy career when you have secret adventures like those???Enbrethilielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03414765854670926854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-57430422057640229752010-04-24T18:20:12.167-04:002010-04-24T18:20:12.167-04:00Now, I wonder what happened to Charles Wallace? H...Now, I wonder what happened to Charles Wallace? He is the kind of character -- preternaturally both innocent and wise -- who most authors would kill off. I haven't read Many Waters, but he doesn't seem to be in any of the other books.Pentimentohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17161146891505294679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-14702429361188958372010-04-24T17:39:37.617-04:002010-04-24T17:39:37.617-04:00+JMJ+
The O'Keefes were another reason I spen...+JMJ+<br /><br />The O'Keefes were another reason I spent quite some time confused about whether or not L'Engle was Catholic! <br /><br />I agree that Meg is L'Engle's most important character, though it's Vicky who has always been the "favourite child." What's really interesting, moreover, is that L'Engle never let Vicky grow up (even though her younger sister Suzy does!), but allowed Meg to age in a way L'Engle herself later seemed to find problematic.Enbrethilielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03414765854670926854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-49776259778796179482010-04-24T17:22:58.959-04:002010-04-24T17:22:58.959-04:00EXCEPT that Calvin O'Keefe's first name is...EXCEPT that Calvin O'Keefe's first name is . . . Calvin. ;)Pentimentohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17161146891505294679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-22752611067428719032010-04-24T17:22:30.982-04:002010-04-24T17:22:30.982-04:00Interesting, E. Meg must be L'Engle's mos...Interesting, E. Meg must be L'Engle's most fully-fleshed out character, and, arguably, her most important one. If L'Engle herself believes that Meg has squandered her promise through prolific motherhood -- and certainly it doesn't seem that any other character came along to counter those assertions -- it makes you wonder why. <br /><br />And it also really calls into question how much childbearing is intentional, a whole other subject. And . . . it suggests the issue of contraception, yet another.<br /><br />And now I have something else on my mind, dating back to that "simple Episcopalian" theme: Calvin O'Keefe is surely a Catholic, right? I mean, his name. And the fact that he's one of eleven children and they're poor and the father is a drunk. It makes you wonder what L'Engle thought of Catholicism, and also in what church Meg and Calvin were married! Could Meg have converted to the RC Church? Is that why she has apparently eschewed artificial contraception? Hmmm . . .Pentimentohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17161146891505294679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-66040077446042200782010-04-24T14:15:55.144-04:002010-04-24T14:15:55.144-04:00+JMJ+
PPS--I just read my last comment over and t...+JMJ+<br /><br />PPS--I just read my last comment over and think I should clarify what I mean by "cracked."<br /><br />What I wanted to say was that if Meg had felt unfairly taken advantage of, she would have said or done something about it much earlier. <br /><br /><i>Or</i> presumably, Mrs. Murry would have said something to her daughter. But doesn't it sound as if she never told Meg what she has just told Polly?Enbrethilielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03414765854670926854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-70573065457863708392010-04-24T13:17:20.345-04:002010-04-24T13:17:20.345-04:00+JMJ+
PS--Pentimento, I think you read the exchan...+JMJ+<br /><br />PS--Pentimento, I think you read the exchange between Polly and Mrs. Murry correctly. In <i>A House Like a Lotus</i>, another character who is a kind of mother to Polly says that Calvin has been unconsciously selfish and that Meg has been holding herself back for his sake.<br /><br />I totally disagree with that assessment of Meg, by the way. I don't think she was still so cowed by her mother as an adult for her not to wish to "compete" or to give her own daughter a complex. And even if she had been, I think she would have "cracked" after almost twenty years of living in Calvin's shadow. I mean, she has always been so much stronger than that.Enbrethilielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03414765854670926854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-4417353084583803002010-04-24T11:07:57.903-04:002010-04-24T11:07:57.903-04:00+JMJ+
Indeed, in all fairness to O'Brien, I&#...+JMJ+<br /><br />Indeed, in all fairness to O'Brien, I'll admit that I'm critiquing all the points he has made secondhand. <br /><br />But I myself have found L'Engle problematic without any help from anyone--not because of the witches, the dragons, and the like, but because she is so quick to baptise or absolve even the most exotic religious traditions, calling them Christian in everything but name. <br /><br />My own experience with her is kind of mixed. At the time I was eating up her stories with a spoon, I was also reading a lot of occult books. And I found it very easy to reconcile what I found in her books with some of the more un-Christian elements in my other reading. (Incidentally, <i>A Wrinkle in Time</i> was recommended for "further reading" by an astrologer who put it on the same list as titles by Manly Palmer Hall and Rudolph Steiner!)<br /><br />So if <i>I</i> were to subject her novels to an O'Brien style fisking of my own, I'd say that Charles Wallace's "going within" in <i>A Swiftly Tilting Planet</i> wasn't possession at all, but "clearly" a form of past life regression. There is a dusty notebook somewhere in my home in which I wrote my very detailed case for that being so.<br /><br />Which is my long-winded way of saying, Pentimento, that I think your analogy with Medjugorje is actually pretty good!Enbrethilielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03414765854670926854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-956706740562564332010-04-24T08:15:35.545-04:002010-04-24T08:15:35.545-04:00That's amazing, Lissla. I actually love his n...That's amazing, Lissla. I actually love his novels, too. If you look on my favorite books list, you'll find at least one of them on there. <br /><br />I'm going to analogize wildly about his argument contra L'Engle for a moment. I know lots of Trads who are very down on Medjugorje, and have good reasons for their claim that the apparitions can't be valid. There is a Carmelite abbey in Colorado whose nuns do rosary repair, and I've sent them some of my broken rosaries; they refused to fix one that was stamped "Medjugorje" (given to me by a Croatian friend). But on the other hand, when I became close to the Sisters of Life back in New York, I learned from several of them that their conversions had come about through their visits to Medjugorje. Some of them hadn't even been Catholic before going there. And that order really is a great sign of holiness in the world.<br /><br />I guess I wish I could be more like L'Engle or some of her characters, and say what O'Brien seems to believe she is saying: that the ends justify the means -- i.e., if holiness is the fruit, then what does it matter how we produced it? But I'm afraid that statement, if adhered to, rationalizes all kinds of heresy.<br /><br />The problem is that while some people are, through the grace of God, able to grasp at holiness through or after or in the midst of evil acts, you would be damning yourself and others if you recommended that as a viable way to live. "Go on and think, say, and do as you like . . . as long as you bring some good or holiness out of it, it's all good." Which is a sort of converse thesis to the one that the false bishop proposes in The Young Unicorns: compel goodness through manipulating the human person, and you have goodness; doesn't matter how you achieved it.Pentimentohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17161146891505294679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-74139917526647245582010-04-24T07:48:49.992-04:002010-04-24T07:48:49.992-04:00It's sort of ironic - reading L'Engle kept...It's sort of ironic - reading L'Engle kept me Christian during my teens and early twenties, and O'Brien's novels were one of the reasons we became Catholic.lissla lissarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05354424704358588553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-63746535907577997172010-04-24T07:45:12.866-04:002010-04-24T07:45:12.866-04:00Enbrethiliel, you are far more widely read in the ...Enbrethiliel, you are far more widely read in the L'Engle oeuvre than I am. Perhaps it's my love of her novels that makes me want to agree with you. But, to be fair, I think that I need to read O'Brien's book, and I also think it was uncharitable of me to call him facile and amateurish in a fit of pique, so please forgive me, readers.Pentimentohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17161146891505294679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-30691533446807030332010-04-24T05:51:14.838-04:002010-04-24T05:51:14.838-04:00+JMJ+
Melanie, I also tend to agree with O'Br...+JMJ+<br /><br />Melanie, I also tend to agree with O'Brien's points, but would make the opposite conclusion. <br /><br />For me, L'Engle got a lot of <i>details</i> disturbingly wrong, but at least has the right foundation.Enbrethilielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03414765854670926854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-45628561875995292712010-04-24T05:49:04.440-04:002010-04-24T05:49:04.440-04:00+JMJ+
Lissla, I agree, with reservations, to the ...+JMJ+<br /><br />Lissla, I agree, with reservations, to the idea that we can find foreshadowings of Christ in the pagan religions of antiquity. But L'Engle seems more excited by the idea than Lewis or Tolkien ever were. <br /><br />In <i>A Ring of Endless Light</i>, Vicky learns that when her grandfather, who is a minister, and grandmother were missionaries in Africa, they devoted a lot of time to recording the stories, songs and rituals of the people they were living with. That didn't go down very well with his colleagues, because it didn't fit into their preconceived ideas of what a missionary should do. Harmless enough, aye?<br /><br />But in <i>A House Like a Lotus</i>, we see the Christian missionary's mission from the other side. Polly meets a Polynesian character who says that his people were Christian long before the missionaries came and finally told them Christ's name. Which I think is problematic on a couple of levels. <br /><br />L'Engle really seems to like her noble savages.Enbrethilielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03414765854670926854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-42336016345021551822010-04-23T22:05:02.193-04:002010-04-23T22:05:02.193-04:00Agreed. The sad thing is I think many of his point...Agreed. The sad thing is I think many of his points in the book are well made. But I think his more extreme over-reactions tend to overshadow the valid points he does make.Melanie Bettinellihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12557248434888642114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-89521578240936481552010-04-23T21:27:22.194-04:002010-04-23T21:27:22.194-04:00Sigh. One thing I'm always suspicious of in c...Sigh. One thing I'm always suspicious of in criticism of any kind is critics who say things like "Clearly the author is etc. etc." I'm sorry, but it's disingenuous to draw a direct line between one critic's opinion of what an author is trying to do, and proof that she *actually is* trying to do it. This is the sort of facile amateurishness that O'Brien brings forth when he's away from his novels. I think he needs a less-sympathetic editor.Pentimentohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17161146891505294679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-65223150415024905662010-04-23T21:10:33.301-04:002010-04-23T21:10:33.301-04:00Here's a third vote for the Space Trilogy.
I...Here's a third vote for the Space Trilogy. <br /><br />I agree both that O'Brien is overinterpreting and that it seems like there is a sort of fear involved. <br /><br />O'Brien does, incidentally, include Grimm in his recommended book lists. He seems to be suspicious of anything modern but similar elements in earlier works don't come under similar scrutiny.<br /><br />Here's what he says about Mrs Which:<br /><br />"One of the angels, curiously, has no scruples about stealing, and another materializes as a witch. That is not its true form, the angel assures the children, it is merely playing. Nevertheless, it is an odd image for an angel to use, considering the fact that in the real order of the cosmos witchcraft is involved with, or at least opens doors to, the world of the diabolical. Clearly the author is venting a popular modern notion about Christendom's horror of witchcraft. She is trying to tame the image of the witch and to show us that certain Christian fears about the supernatural are groundless-- an undercurrent throughout her books."Melanie Bettinellihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12557248434888642114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-50195504813651808572010-04-23T19:52:14.685-04:002010-04-23T19:52:14.685-04:00Thanks for reinfording Lissla's recommendation...Thanks for reinfording Lissla's recommendation, Elena. I'm looking forward to reading it.<br /><br />And Lissla, I couldn't agree more. What came to my mind in the "sanitizing witchcraft" remark was Mrs. Which - who's not really a witch. I suppose he would decry The Wizard of Oz for having a character like Glinda, too.Pentimentohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17161146891505294679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-77970878880312252922010-04-23T15:12:01.005-04:002010-04-23T15:12:01.005-04:00Pentimento, CS Lewis' space trilogy is great. ...Pentimento, CS Lewis' space trilogy is great. Start with the first one, OUT OF THE SILENT PLANET.<br /><br />Those are interesting points that Melanie shares from Michael O'Brien's book.elena maria vidalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129629173535139807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-14478697838790788872010-04-23T14:35:23.706-04:002010-04-23T14:35:23.706-04:00Okay, some comments have gone up since I refreshed...Okay, some comments have gone up since I refreshed- The Happy Medium is NOT "trying to sanitize witchcraft"! It's a JOKE! The twins accuse Meg of not having a happy medium! So she finds one! It's funny! L'Engle actually wrote about someone complaining about that scene.<br /><br />Yeesh.<br /><br /><br />I also think that he's overinterpreting. Are we allowed any fairytales or fantasy at all? Are the Ainur and Istari, the scrying of Galadriel, and the horn of Susan forbidden?lissla lissarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05354424704358588553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-12597159843117691852010-04-23T14:21:17.168-04:002010-04-23T14:21:17.168-04:00I don't think you can find Christ Himself in t...I don't think you can find Christ Himself in the rituals of earlier, pagan religions, but Tolkien and Lewis would say you can maybe find foreshadowings in myth.<br /><br />I like That Hideous Strength in spite of not liking Charles Williams, whose influence is pretty clear.lissla lissarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05354424704358588553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-22383782397954947492010-04-23T14:15:11.886-04:002010-04-23T14:15:11.886-04:00I really think O'Brien is overinterpreting som...I really think O'Brien is overinterpreting some of these things. I wonder if he believes that the Grimm brothers are morally dangerous for children too. What bothers me is the spirit of fear that seems to underlie his criticism. "The Lord is my stronghold and my life -- of whom shall I be afraid?" (Ps. 27)Pentimentohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17161146891505294679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5554498168264477884.post-50099464907524087862010-04-23T14:11:12.819-04:002010-04-23T14:11:12.819-04:00I also wondered why the Murrys didn't mention ...I also wondered why the Murrys didn't mention Mr. Murry's own time travel experience. And it does seem, in that brief comment to Polly, that Mrs. Murry feels as if Meg may have squandered her potential by having seven children - or am I reading too much into that exchange, I wonder?Pentimentohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17161146891505294679noreply@blogger.com